Talk:Pierre Monteux

LSO contract

Would it be worth mentioning one amusing aspect of his contract with the London Symphony? They gave him a 25-year contract with an option to extend for another 25 years...this when he was well into his eighties! Wspencer11 14:46, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot 05:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

M. in the studio

I'm wondering about the latest addition, which sounds a bit like damning with faint praise to me, and which I don't think really adds anything terribly useful to the article. Are video and audio airchecks really the only way to defend his, or anyone's, gifts as a performer? What about those unfortunate souls who died before recording was invented? Maybe there's a better way to refer to these materials that doesn't come across quite so dismissively. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 19:10, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Copied from User:Cg2p0B0u8m's talk page

I'd be delighted to work with you on the article. I have Canarina's biography, and a good history of the LSO, but not much else, apart from Grove. Tim riley (talk) 14:19, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

That would be good. I have both those (the LSO is the Morrison one, fine but not a lot of material). I will type up my list of articles (including several in-depth record reviews) to suggest, but I do have the Mousnier book (which is written from the point of view of a recording producer, and a Frenchman) and Doris's volume. It would be good to cover the pre-Rite period adequately, as his musical experiences in those years was astonishing. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 17:22, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

I am working backstage on the early years: here. It's a very early draft, but by all means leave comments on my talk page (or even edit the sandbox if you feel comfortable doing so – you're most welcome). Ignore the pseudo-Latin gibberish in the lead - it's just there to give me a feel for the proportions of the page. The British Library has a copy of the J-P Mousnier book that I can consult, but my French is inexpert and laborious, so you're much more likely than I am to find what we want in Mousnier. The BL has Doris's book, of course. Do you recommend my reading it? Tim riley (talk) 16:22, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry I have not yet started writing any material; I do need to make some comments on the new Carmen article.

In answer to your question, there is a lot of overlap between Mousnier and Canarina but it is a serious book and he is worth quoting from. Doris’s book is a good read although some people have said that it is not very reliable/objective. On the first section in your sandbox, here are some superficial comments:

I think we could amend and expand the third sentence to focus on his mother’s musical ability/instrument etc. We should mention somewhere his siblings and relations (brother Henri was an actor in Paris) and some information about those that died in the concentration camps. Maybe this would be lower down.

I think it is worth mentioning that he attended the premiere of Franck’s symphony and that (with the Geloso) he played for Grieg (there is a photo).

We need to check the position on children.

Sorry for the short reply, but I will try to get something typed soon.

Somewhere we should mention the fact that, like Boult, Walter, Klemperer and Toscanini, he split the firsts and seconds; this would be important when discussing the ‘Monteux sound’. (ref = Boult A. The Art of Conducting: IV. Arranging Orchestras. In: Boult on Music. Toccata Press, 1983, p146). Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:57, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Excellent! I'll follow all these up. I so agree about splitting first and second violins, and will definitely include this in the music section. I look forward to further comments at your leisure, but there is no rush! Tim riley (talk) 22:45, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Later: I've followed some of these points up. I spent an hour this morning dipping into Mousnier and a couple more with Doris's book. The latter is to be quoted with caution, I feel, though Canarina draws heavily on it. I've moved the work-in-progress from my sandbox to the Pierre Monteux article, where I very much hope you will add and amend ad lib. I have a horrible feeling that, like Offenbach, this is a subject of which you know a great deal more than I do, so please don't hold back! (But there is absolutely no rush.) Tim riley (talk) 19:33, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I admit I have not read these books for a while, so your reading is more up to date.

These are some quotes from Grove I noted down:

Cooper M, Bowen J, Barber C. Pierre Monteux. In: The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, 2nd edition. Macmillan, 2001.

Conducted at Paris Opera during 1913-14 season

1924-34 second conductor of the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra

SFSO – “he raised the standard of the orchestra to an international level”

“was never and ostentatious conductor, preparing his orchestra in often arduous rehearsals and then using small but decisive gestures to obtain playing of fine texture, careful detail and powerful rhythmic energy” … “retaining to the last his extraordinary grasp of musical structure and a faultless ear for sound quality”

Thank you for balancing the quotes about M's views on Rite of Spring! Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:58, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

While looking at Mousnier I was struck by the fact that where I dipped in he never, refers to "Monteux" tout court, but always to "Pierre Monteux". Is that en règle in French biographies, I wonder? Tim riley (talk) 17:36, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Images of Monteux

The article is not very strong on images on Monteux. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:06, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

You're right, and I am doing my damndest to find pictures that won't fall foul of the image police. Apropos images, have a look at the one here - note the cellos on the right and weep! Tim riley (talk) 21:49, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

That was worrying - I quickly looked at You Tube and the three videos there are thankfully 'correct'.Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 23:05, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

One public domain image of Monteux, wife and daughter circa 1919 added. I had also hoped for something from Le Figaro's archive, but rien, alas! Anything you can find that is public domain will be most welcome. Tim riley (talk) 17:36, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

This must be one with Messager cropped off. (Of course they would have met anyway at the P&M premiere). If you go to google and search in images for 'Monteux' there is a fair amount, including some record sleeves, but I am not sure whether they could be used without permission. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 18:28, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

I wonder about a scan of the LP cover of one of his classic late recordings? Although that might be better for the discography page. Of course, I have no idea how to do this properly. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 18:08, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

I just found this interesting one: http://www.left-hand-brofeldt.dk/Images/Sain-Saens_Mozart_1913_w.jpg, but don't know if it could be used. Also: http://community.sfsymphony.org/profiles/blogs/music-for-a-city-pierre-monteux. Unfortunately this one from Vogue is $125 - http://www.condenaststore.com/-sp/Vogue-May-1945-Leon-Fleisher-Playing-with-Pierre-Monteux-Prints_i8706751_.htm. This has a nice photo of him conducting, but am not sure how it could be obtained. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 11:34, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

This is on the Commons page : http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Trocadero_orgue.jpg

I'm afraid I don't know how to crop images but it would be nice to have a young one of M, next to Landowska. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:29, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Children

Key P V R. Pierre Key's Musical Who's Who. Pierre Key, Inc, New York, 1931, states: "married 3 times; 3 children: Jean (musician, Casino de Paris) by 1st wife; Denise and Claude by 2nd wife" Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:56, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

He legally adoped Doris's two, as well. Not sure yet whether to try to fit all these into the main text or have a separate "family" section. I prefer the former, but sometimes the latter is the only way to preserve a coherent narrative. Comments welcome! Tim riley (talk) 17:36, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Beethoven cycle

I think this needs checking - I thought although it is possible to have all studio records of Monteux conducting Beethoven symphonies, they are from different orchestras, years and labels. So perhaps the definition of 'cycle' is too elastic? Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:06, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Point taken, but until the Karajan cycle of 1963 there was never an "all or nothing" set of the symphonies. Toscanini and Klemperer et al recorded the symphonies ad hoc, as did Monteux. Tim riley (talk) 21:47, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

On reflection, perhaps "recorded all the Beethoven symphonies" would be more neutral. What think you? Tim riley (talk) 17:24, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I would be much happier with your second thoughts. (I think also you are wrong to say “but until the Karajan cycle of 1963 [61-62??] there was never an "all or nothing" set of the symphonies”: Mengelberg, Toscannini? Klemperer? Cluytens? Even Karajan and the Philharmonia in the early 50s pre-date that.) In terms of the introduction to this article maybe it might be nicer to summarize his recorded repertoire by saying it was as wide as his concert repertoire but lacking on the operatic side? I will now do a bit more with my notes of additions. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:54, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

By all means go ahead on the lines you suggest above. Tim riley (talk) 09:13, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Assessment

I increased the quality assessment of this article to B-class. Great job, everyone, on the article's progress! -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:00, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Some points while I remember

1. I don't quite understand the issue in 'M in the studio' above. Maybe it is dealt with now by default.

I don't understand it either. If the editor concerned is interested enough to have PM on his/her watchlist, h/eshe can chip in at PR. Tim riley (talk) 17:02, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

2. It would be nice to find alternative criticims of Monteux - Haggins' is incoherent to me ('a giant of conducting... repeated musical mediocrity...') while Cardus on Monteux in Brahms is in a bit of minority. I realize there must be criticism in the article, but think there must be better examples available to have?

I'm quite happy with these from the anti lobby, but if you can find better by all means go ahead. Tim riley (talk) 17:02, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

3. Note 17 has a nice quote from Boult, but it doesn't mention Monteux. In Boult on music, p146 he does: "I am in a small minority. However, on my side are Walter, Monteux, Klemperer and a few others, including Toscanini..." Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:48, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Much better Tim riley (talk) 17:02, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

4. I think the first section (introductory parasgraphs) should stress his importance and (horrible word) greatness - otherwise it might look like a 'fan's' Wikipedia article. (Although the achievements speak for themselves, perhaps the article itself needs this more too - ie, he isn't any old conductor.) Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 11:34, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Let's see what our colleagues say at PR. I'm not very good at lead sections and often get a lot of help at PR. Tim riley (talk) 17:02, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

5. It seems probable that Monteux would have participated in the 1908-1909 Pathé recordings by the Colonne Orchestra, but the only mention of the possibility I have found is in the notes to the 3-CD Cascavelle Monteux set. Perhaps there is a better reference? Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 18:58, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

By all means add that faute di mieux Tim riley (talk) 17:02, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

6. The LSO music directors box at the bottom gives Monteux as starting his period in 1960; the article gives 1961 which I think is correct. Likewise the SFSO box gives 1935 but I think it is early 1936. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:56, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

All excellent points. I'll add my thoughts, for what they're worth, over the weekend. Tim riley (talk) 23:19, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

for (2) I haven't looked for better criticisms yet, I did act upon (3), 4 and 5 I am still looking at. Shall I change the LSO box or does it need discussion?

Not sure. Let's ask at PR and see what colleagues think. Tim riley (talk) 17:05, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

7. The article (and discography article) says that his final studio recording sessions was the pieces with Claude; my Decca Original Masters set (which is well documented) gives the Ravel La Valse, Ma mère l'oye – complete, Boléro (Philips 835258) as 22-26 February 1964. The reference you gave is of course correct, for Decca recordings. I am happy to make the corrections. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 11:41, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Please do. I thought the Philips recordings were earlier (they certainly sound it, but then Decca's engineers were peerless in those days. Tim riley (talk) 17:02, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

8. Sorry another thing: although Canarina says that "there appear to have been no performances of Harold in Italy" by the Colonne Orchestra - p23, if you find this pdf (paraphrasesmusic00udin.pdf), on page 68 there is a report of a performance by Monteux conducted by Mottl. Given that the piece was somewhat neglected (and also that we have little about Monteux as a soloist) it deserves to be added. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 12:27, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

It does indeed. Pray do. Tim riley (talk) 17:02, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Unanswered comments from the Peer Review

As Tim riley is no longer active (although I hope very much he may return at some point to Wikipedia) I thought I would try to answer those comments which were not dealt with during the June peer review. Where possible and uncontroversial I will then make the edit in the article itself, and hope it is not against what Tim riley was thinking.

Comments by Wehwalt

Lede

• I would add a second sentence to the first paragraph stating what Monteux is best known for. My opinion is that the first paragraph of this lede generally should not be that short.

- I am sure this is fine but there is quite a lot to include – maybe someone can propose a sentence. I think the Colonne years probably deserve a mention.

" and the viola privately with Benjamin Godard. After working as a violist," To mention a viola is of course necessary, but as both words orbit close by the violin, can these two not be combined into one by using some such construction as "which he played"? Perhaps by having the sentence break between the violin and viola.

-Maybe just say “After playing in orchestras…”?

• " Among the composers whose concert works he premiered " Since you earlier specified that certain premieres took place in Paris, readers may assume that all of these happened in London.

-add “throughout his career”? Or a duplicate link to Note 20

• "but he nevertheless made a substantial number of records ranging as widely as his concert repertoire, from Bach to the premieres he conducted, and including all the Beethoven symphonies" This part of the sentence could use a bit of work for clarity.

-Maybe leave out ‘as his concert repertoire’ and have a sentence lower down about the vast number of works he conducted

• "Hancock County, Maine" People are more likely to have heard of a name of a town than a county in the US. It doesn't have the same association as in the UK.

-I think they called it the ‘Domain of the Great Pine’ Perhaps just Hancock would do

Early years

• You dance around the point but do not actually say if Monteux and his immediate family were Jewish. Also, "Sephardi Jews", in my experience "Sephardic" is more common.

-Fine

• "The young Monteux" I would re-establish that you are talking about Pierre.

-Fine

• " Folies Bergère" You mention it twice in quick succession, ending consecutive sentences. I suggest that you combine with a semicolon and use only once.

-Fine

• "he played many concerts with the Quartet, " In view of the fact that it's bracketed by others of its breed, omitting "Quartet" in favour of some other word.

-maybe ‘them’ would do

• "inter-religious marriage; furthermore both families thought the couple too young to marry.[10] There were a son and daughter of the marriage" Perhaps one of the marriages could make way for "union" or similar? Also, is "mixed marriage" a term outside the US?

-yes, we can change the last one to union

• "During these years " What years? The years of his marriage? You haven't framed what years those were for us.

-During his formative years?

• "playing ancient pieces allegedly found in libraries by one of the Casadesus, who in the end confessed to having written the music himself." A bit awkward; if they were composed by on eof the Casadesus, then they weren't ancient. Suggest rephrase.

-need to think how to rephrase it

• "Berlioz". First mention, should be linked. Additionally, passage somewhat cryptic, though the footnote does help.

-I will link and try to improve the phrase

Ballets Russes

• "he insisted that Monteux should conduct the premiere." suggest delete "should"

-Fine

• " In the middle of the tour Monteux was briefly summoned back to Paris by the Concerts Colonne, leaving his deputy, Désiré-Émile Inghelbrecht, in temporary charge at the Ballets Russes.[34] The Colonne orchestra had a contractual right to recall Monteux, who remained its assistant conductor." Hm, perhaps "In the middle of the tour Monteux was briefly summoned back to Paris by the Concerts Colonne, which had the contractual right to recall him as its assistant conductor, leaving his deputy, Désiré-Émile Inghelbrecht, in charge of the Ballets Russes."

-OK, will change

The Met and Boston

• "Monteux was called up for military service" Judging by his first service, the scraping of the barrel bottom indeed. Perhaps "again called up"?

-Fine

• Is it possible to say how two years in the trenches affected him?

-I would have to search for something, but there may be comments somewhere

• On balance, I would give the double bill of Petrushka and La traviata its own sentence.

-Will try to do

• "from German backgrounds" possibly "with German backgrounds"? Or "of German heritage" if the source will stretch?

-this is actually p63 of Canarina = “Monteux found a thoroughly demoralized orchestra awaiting him, partly because of the Muck episode and partly because at least two dozen of its German musicians had been forced to residing because they, too, were thought to be enemy aliens”

• You should probably mention that Ansermet was the initial musical director. You do imply it, but it had me looking backwards.

-Fine

San Francisco

• SFS or SFSO? You use both.

-Canarina uses the latter so we could use that

• Can some mention be given to WWII, which I believe was going on at some point?

-Yes, a good point – his work during the war, stuck in America, and the fate of his family in France

1950s

• "He returned annually" Monteux
• Any connection between Monteux's return to the Met and Rudolf Bing's ascent there?

-Not sure about these two points

London

• " Neville Marriner" FYI you previously link and describe as "Sir Neville Marriner". Perhaps this time, change to "his former student Marriner, who was by then (whatever he was)"

-We probably don’t need to knighthood in this context

Music

• For the final sentence of the article, it seems odd that this is a sentence about audio recordings in a paragraph about videos.

-Will change it

• Is the see also really necessary? It's in the text?

-Perhaps not

That's all I have. A good read as always.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:01, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks for these points. I'll go into conference with my co-nominator and agree what we are going to do about each of them. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments: Sorry for the delay in getting to this, but "events, dear boy, events...". Here are a few initial points, none of much substance:-

Lead

• I echo Wehwalt's concern about single-sentence opening paragraphs, which often introduce the subject rather weakly. You need a second sentence which draws attention to the subject's main claims to notability. In this case, perhaps something along the lines of: "In the course of his career he premiered many important works, including..."
• "He then served in the French army for two years, and in 1916 conducted the Ballets Russes on a North American tour." The two clauses are too diverse in subject material to be joined by an "and" - events separated by over 20 years.

-I will try to separate these two

Early years

• "He attended the world premiere of Franck's Symphony." Perhaps give the date. Personally I would say "Cesar Franck", and separate the links on the composer and the work.

-I will add February 1889 and separate the link

• "given to the composer" → "given before the composer" ?

-Yes, fine

• "Although only eighteen..." → "at the age of eighteen" ?

-Yes, that’s better

• Paragraph beginning: "During these years he also..." Needs name, not pronoun.

-will add name

• "one of the Casadesus" doesn't work; it's like saying "one of the Menhuin".

-perhaps 'family' is better

First conducting posts

• Is it right to refer to his conducting of the Saint-Saens as a "conducting engagement"? He certainly wasn't intended for this job initially.

-maybe change engagement to ‘experience’?

• "called up for compulsory military service." I would have thought that "called up" implied "compulsory"

-Fine

• Suggested clarification: "As a graduate of the Conservatoire, one of France's grandes écoles, he was..."

-Fine

• It is possible to adjust the brightness and contrast on the Saint-Saens image, so that the old boy appears with better definition. I have tried this and I think it worked - why not have a go?

-This is far beyond my knowledge…!

Ballets Russes

• Mention Weber as composer of Le Spectre de la Rose?

-Maybe but the orchestral version used was probably by Berlioz

-I hope it is clear what are my replies... Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 14:48, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

More soon. Brianboulton (talk) 10:28, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, as ever. Please don't rush to finish your comments. My fellow conspirator and I have loads to be getting on with (supra). Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

OK, I'll wait till you've dealt with the earlier comments, so I don't bore you by repeating points already made. Brianboulton (talk) 20:15, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

My finger slipped while typing the Edit Summary at 18.08! - I meant to say that I made more edits based on these loose ends. I added a phrase about the Second World War, based on the many pages in Canarina p140-163 describing his work in the USA during those years, but this sentence probably needs improving. If I am able to respond on the outstanding comments I will try. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 18:14, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I think I have now dealt with the remaining questions raised by peer reviewers... Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:12, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Use of non-free image

There is no case for the use of File:NikolaiRoerichRite1.jpg, an image of Roerich's 1913 designs for The Rite of Spring which is used in that article under a fair use rationale. The image is central to that article; it is only decorative for this article, which contains no discussion of it. I have replaced it with a free image of Roerich's costume designs for The Rite. Brianboulton (talk) 18:27, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Sentence about M and Rite performances in London

I see that the following was (re)deleted, on the justification that it is marginal information. I disagree: it is about Monteux, his behaviour with regard to close collaborators and his attitude to the integrity of the music he conducted. (No one objected to this at Peer Review.) I propose it go back:

Leading up to the 1913 London performances, Diaghilev's authority was challenged when Monteux declared that he was "Stravinsky's representative" in matters related to Rite of Spring. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 18:39, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

See your talkpage. I have reiterated the reasons why I think the statement is marginal, but I have also indicated that I don't object to its reinstatement, if that is what you wish. (Incidentally, I did not intend to delete it twice; I simply forgot about the first time). Brianboulton (talk) 00:00, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

References

Petrushka and Spectre dates

We're told Le Spectre de la Rose premiered on the same occasion as Petrushka. But Petrushka (ballet) says it premiered on 13 June 1911 in Paris under Monteux, while Le Spectre de la Rose says it premiered on 19 April 1911, in Monte Carlo, with no mention of Monteux.

Something doesn't add up. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 09:02, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The text reads: "Petrushka was part of a triple bill, all conducted by Monteux. The other two pieces were Le Spectre de la Rose and Scheherazade..." There is no suggestion here that Le Spectre was premiered on this occasion. It was performed as part of the bill (as indeed it was two years later, at the Le Sacre du Printemps premiere). Brianboulton (talk) 10:17, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Leplin

While I think the link should stay in, do we need so much about Leplin who is probably less notable than others mentioned? Mousnier and Doris do not mention him and Canarina only in the context of his conducting some of his works while a player in the orchestra. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 12:20, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

I concur. Perhaps delete "whom Monteux called "Mon étoile-élève", before Leplin was paralyzed by polio and had to consign himself to composing and painting" and turn the comma into a full stop? Tim riley (talk) 22:22, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

After waiting a week or so, I'm acting as suggested above. Tim riley (talk) 22:35, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

France's grandes écoles

The article states that Monteux was a graduate of one of the grandes écoles, but Wikipedia does not mention it in that article.... Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:50, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Protection when it was the featured article

(cur | prev) 00:00, 19 June 2014‎ TFA Protector Bot (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (79,569 bytes) (0)‎ . . (Protected Pierre Monteux: Upcoming TFA (bot protection) ([Move=Allow only administrators] (expires 00:00, 2 July 2014 (UTC)))) (undo)

It seems that the article was supposed to be protected when it was featured on the home page. Clearly it didn't work as there was some vandalism on that day... Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:54, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

[Move=Allow only administrators] means that page-move vandalism is prevented, and so yes the article was protected and yes that protection worked as there was no page-move vandalism. If you're under the impression that TFAs are automatically given semi-protection from editing during their appearance (thus preventing IP editors and new accounts from editing), then you're wrong. TFAs are not protected in advance of problems, but can be protected on the day if there is excessive vandalism. Bencherlite^Talk 22:37, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I have clearly misunderstood how Wikipedia 'Featured Articles' are dealt with. A great shame that these are not given some sort of protection against vandals and that people have to waste time correcting silly and offensive edits on that 'featured' day... It cannot do the image of Wikipedia any good. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:48, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

introductory section

we now have lists of famous conductors in the introductory section and lower down in the Monteux School paragraph. Do we need both? Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:42, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

No. Agreed. I think the whole list could be removed from the intro section. Cheers, Markhh (talk) 23:25, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

The list in the lead should be shorter than the main one, giving an overview, as laid down in WP:Lead. I have trimmed it, removing the obscurer names recently added during the front page onslaught. Tim riley talk 08:42, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

another picture

Although the article really needs a photo of an older Monteux, I would like to propose that

be used somewhere, although I am not sure if the 'description' is quite accurate. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 18:20, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Very nice indeed. Well worth including if you can find a suitable space in the early years. Tim riley talk 00:51, 19 November 2014 (UTC)